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Using Cheap Acme Thread and homemade Acme Tap

Discussion in 'Original Phlatprinter MODIFICATIONS' started by kyyu, Jan 19, 2009.

  1. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    Hi All,

    This thread is to share info on Acme threaded rod to mod the PP. I think it will become one of the must do mods, next to bronze bushings and plastic driver nuts.

    I got interested after seeing Dorsal's thread. As far as I know, he is the only person so far, using the acme threads in a PP. This is the thread here:
    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=141
    The main drawback with acme thread is it is so expensive, so the first order of business is the find a cheap source. Dorsal got his from the ebay seller, "Hubbard CNC". It turns out a 3' section is just barely enough ($21 shipped). I wanted more, because I wanted it longer to use bearing blocks. They just ran out of 6'. I watched them for a while to see if they would restock, but no luck. So maybe they won't be a good source anyways, if they don't have consistent stock. But I finally went with two pieces of 3' @ $38 shipped. It's pretty nice stuff. This is the link:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0329508442

    Ok, so then I see there is some real cheap acme rod at ENCO. Regular price is like $11/$16 but from what I hear it seems to be always on sale for like $4 for 3' and $6 for 6' (and it turns out their shipping is real cheap, Hubbard on the other hand charged me a whopping $20 for shipping half of what I eventually purchased from ENCO) I was skeptical, but finally decided to order some because I saw a few people on cnczone using the stuff. Also, both the hubbard and enco stuff were labeled oil finished. So I ordered 2 x 6' and it was only $20 shipped. I came packaged in a really strong paper tube. I mean this thing was super heavy duty. The sides were like 1/4" thick of dense paper. One of my fears was a 6' section would be easily bent by ups, but no way this could ever happen. This stuff is nice too. Both the hubbard and enco stuff looks about the same to me. My super close up pics did show the outer thread tip surface of the enco acme rod is a little worse, but that probably doesn't matter much. The thread face is the important contact surface.

    Here are three pics of the acme rod. They are 3/8"-12 size. Two are enco and one is hubbard's. Can you tell much of a difference? Or pick out which is which? Looks close enough to me. ENCO was twice as much product, for half the price! There is a oil coating on the surface and some dirt stuck to it:




    Here are two close up pic of the ENCO acme thread:



    Here are two close up pics of the Hubbard acme thread:

    Attached files [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] 5=887-DSCN0485_enco.jpg" class="gc-images" title="DSCN0485_enco.jpg" style="max-width:300px" /> [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. meistertek

    meistertek Member

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  3. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    Yes, that's the exact acme rod I got from ENC0. There is an even better page to look at. On the home page, if you click on "Hot Deals" > "Raw Materials" > view page "70", you will get to this page:
    http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMKA ... &PMCTLG=01

    No, I haven't installed them yet. My case isn't even glued together, yet. And I need to make a tap, make the drive nut out of HDPE and make the 8 acme nuts I need for the ball bearings. I plan to use regular 3/8" nuts, fill them and retap them. I probably probably should have bought a few nuts, just in case. Probably, will make a new z axis, without the middle section and put the drive nut at the very top. There is not enough room right there, for what I want to do. Lots to do, but I will post here when there is something to share.

    -Kwok
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous New Member

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    It's hard to believe you and I are the only 2 using Acme thread Kwok. I remember somebody had used a ballscrew rod for the Z-Axis, but don't remember who that was. There was a photo as I recall.
     
  5. TigerPilot

    TigerPilot Well-Known Member

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    Most people who buy a product like the PP don't wont or can go into much of modeing (a new English word I just made up :D) it or spent extra money on it.

    Nice find, Kwok. I booked-marked that page and will get me a 6' rod too. I just have to find out how much the freight from New York to here is. A drill-press I just got Friday had cost me $65 on ebay, shipped to New York and $60 shipped here.

    Yoram
     
  6. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    Dorsal,
    I hope this thread will get more people interested. Can you add a update of how your acme thread is working? Did you ever use the all thread? Was there any particular problems that cause you to change?

    Wasn't the guy who posted the switch mod, the one with the ball screw in his z axis? ;)

    TigerPilot,
    I see what you are saying, but I think there are must have mods, which I listed in the first post. Best bang for the buck, to get vast improvement in the PP. It's not any cheaper to buy new stepper motors and not fix the real problem. I hope that as we all share our experience, the mods will be a no brainier for the new club member to do. Bushings are like $12 and now acme rod $6, and I found a cheap source for HDPE plastic also. So it's not that much extra money to spend. Maybe in the future, there can be an upgrade kit.

    Where is here? Shipping should be like $8, if you are in the US. You have to register and go 3 levels thru the checkout and it will show the shipping. I have the feeling it is a fixed priced based on your total, because I add 7nuts @ about ~$10 and the shipping was the same.

    Harbor Freight is a good place for tools and they have local stores. They just sent me a coupon for a drill press, $45. I have the same one. I think I paid $50 the last time they had a coupon. I like it. Nice drill press. Their regular prices aren't that bad either. I just picked up and 4" angle grinder from them for $17, for cutting my acme rod and making the tap. It's going to be way better than a dremel. This one here:
    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=91222

    -Kwok
     
  7. meistertek

    meistertek Member

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    Hey guys. After seeing this post and the ENCO prices, I went ahead and bought 6' of 3/8-12 acme rod and four matching acme nuts. After reading about Dorsals results I wonder why everyone is not jumping to try this mod! I'll post my velocity results once my acme rod is installed.
     
  8. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    A convert, welcome to the club! :mrgreen: Regular ground shipping is fast, too. If it goes out tomorrow, my guess is you will have it friday.
     
  9. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Nice post Kwok! and the prices look great at ENCO.
    We are looking forward to them meistertek this may have to be a future include?
    Thanks
    Mark
     
  10. meistertek

    meistertek Member

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    Mark, what is the price at Lowes for 1/4-20 all thread, I could not find it on the Lowes web site. If the price is close to these acme rods maybe it would be a good future include.

    Here is the break down on the acme stuff I bought from ENCO:
    Model No. Description Qty. Price
    890-9839 3/8"-12RH ACMEOIL FIN6 THREADED ROD 1 $5.99
    890-9840 3/8"-12 CARBON RH 2G ACME HEX NUTS 4 $5.96
    Shipping $12.16
    Total $25.11
     
  11. meistertek

    meistertek Member

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    I will be getting my ACME rod and nuts this afternoon! I'll keep everyone posted on the install and velocity results.
     
  12. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    meistertek, Thanks for the info and the part numbers. We are looking into this site to see if it is feasible to work this into the kits. All there parts look like they are priced right and the quality look great. The problem with us is the shipping.
    We have to have the parts shipped to us and then make the cuts and prep them to be shipped out to our customers. There is a balance between keeping this kit as affordable as possible while not sacrificing quality of the parts used. Its a tough area to stay in, because we want to keep the kits at a price where everyone can afford to have a one. Now if they want to upgrade to nicer parts and better motors etc.. that's great.
    One thing that we like is that these parts seem to be made in the USA and we want to support anywhere we can :)
    So we will be looking into these price breaks and find out if its worth it to take this route.
    Thanks again for posting this.
    Check these out :)
    http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PART ... O=22569056
     
  13. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    Mark,
    Those bushing's are 1/2", you planning to go to larger rods? I actually think that would be a good idea, it probably wouldn't cost any more. You can also get similar prices, even alittle cheaper for the bronze bushings at McMaster-Carr, see page 1120 of their catalog. For some reason !/2" is cheaper than 7/16". When I bought my bushings, the 1/2" were only 58 cent, but now they are 77 cent. Compare to $1.50 for the 7/16" I am using. And they have cheap shipping and close to us, so you can consider getting from more than one source.

    I checked shipping for you, 6' acme rods: 10 rods > ~$10, 20 rods > ~$24, 100 rods > $93 I think. So $7 per rod shipped is very possible and each rod is enough to do 2 PP.

    Their shipping calculator is kind of strange. I was surprised at meistertek's shipping. So I put in his order of 1 rod & 4 nuts and got almost $15 shipping. Removed one nut and it was like $7.30. Two rods & 3 nuts was $8. Must be a nut limit. :p

    I know your concern, that if this deal went away you would have no source for rods. I'll see if I can find any backup sources.

    btw, to answer meistertek's question, 6' length of 1/4" all thread is $3 at home depot.

    I started working on my tap and HDPE nuts yesterday evening. Wish me luck. Silly me didn't buy any nuts, as I didn't forsee their need to clean up the thread after grinding. We will see how it goes.

    -Kwok
     
  14. TigerPilot

    TigerPilot Well-Known Member

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    Kwok, here is the Dominican Republic. I have to have everything couriered to me. Small stuff I get through Miami at $7 a pound and 3 to 4 days delivery. Heavy stuff, like the drill press (or a 52" flat screen TV) comes by ship through New York and takes 6 weeks. :(

    That's the down side. The upside is that if it doesn't rain it's flying weather all year round. The only thing I have to shovel is the sand on the beach (2min walk away form my house) :D

    Yoram
     
  15. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Kwok,
    It was 8 here the other day! :eek: count your blessings :D

    Mark
     
  16. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    Mark,

    I think 1/2" bushings are cheaper, because that size is what most people uses. Like 1/2" thick white HDPE is cheap, because that's what they sell as cutting boards.

    Success! :D I finished my tap and HDPE nuts. First try didn't turn out great, because I didn't cut the groves deep enough. The cuttings jammed up in there, and thread weren't that great. So I fixed that and now it cuts like butter. The grooves have to be deeper than the bottom of the threads.






    This tip is from dbtoutfit, about wearing in the threads. Chuck a length of acme rod into a drill and run the nut back and forth, until it loosens up and spins freely. The nut can easily fly off or jam against the chuck, before you can stop the drill. I finally realized that if you just let go of the nut, it will just spin with the drill and not move anywhere. :idea: Might want to flip the nut around and run it again.

    -Kwok Attached files [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. meistertek

    meistertek Member

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    Dudes! Kyyu thanks so much for posting the info on these ENCO acme rods. Dorsal, thanks for posting your results from your acme mods. This mod is awesome, see my install a results below.

    So, got my 6' 3/8-12 acme rod and nuts today when I got home from work. Here are the steps I took to replace the Y axis all thread with my new acme rod:



    I also made a video of one of the first Y axis travels after motor tuning, you can see it here: http://www.vimeo.com/2916847

    And (drum roll) the before and after results:

    Before with 1/4-20 all thread: Y Axis Velocity 17 Acceleration 12 :cry:

    After with ACME 3/8-12 rod: Y Axis Velocity 30 Acceleration 15 :eek:

    Just a hair short of twice the velocity for under $25.00

    Next I'll be doing the Z axis! Probably will finish Z acme mod this weekend (that sounds german!). Attached files [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. rjarois

    rjarois Moderator Staff Member

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    meistertek, good job man.....like the way you just got in ther and hacked away.....dremel, hammer....if ya decide ya wanna part with $17.00 bucks, i found some kick butt couplers made of delrin. with a .25 stepper motor dia. to the acme thread your using. i am planning a acme mod also, and i will be getting one of them. peace, randy.
    http://www.dumpstercnc.com/
     
  19. rcav8r

    rcav8r Moderator Staff Member

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    Heck that's a little more than twice the velocity. :D

    Your before is what I'm getting now, and was thinking about going to acme rods... I also plan on getting some zero backlash nuts, and am hoping for a little more speed.
    I like the idea of leaving the extra rod hanging out the other end for manual feed. I'll defiantly incorporate that.
     
  20. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    rcav8r,
    I think that is a miss print. It saids this on his video link and makes more sense:
    "Old Y axis velocity was 17 with acceleration of 10.
    New Y axis velocity is 33 with acceleration of 15! Just a hair short of double the speed, awesome!"

    meistertek,
    Good work! Thanks for taking the time to document your mod. That's going to help a lot of people. Wish I could work that quick.

    On your coupler, I see a nice bulge. Were you able to just squeeze the acme rod in? No drilling it out?

    If you want to experiment, I could make you a set of the HDPE nuts? They are untested but its an exact copy of Dorsal's nuts. They spin free, like he reports, and no play at all. Bet we can increase your speed to 3X. :lol:

    I plan to use 3/8" roller skate bearings, to support my acme rod end. You can probably find them for a few dollars on ebay. If you can lock the bearing down and put a nut on each side to secure the acme rod, then it will support all the screw forces instead of the coupler/motor having to do it. The hand crank is a good idea.

    -Kwok
     
  21. Anonymous

    Anonymous New Member

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    :eek: :mrgreen: :cool:
    The highest speeds I've seen on Y are 45, but that was before I noticed the rf glitches from the garage freezer and door opener. Apparently the SmoothStepper is sensitive to this. A grounded, metal container is on the way this weekend.
     
  22. rcav8r

    rcav8r Moderator Staff Member

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    Could be, I didn't watch the video as I'm at work, so I was going by the text. Still almost twice is nice... So your thinking 3X the speed from switching out the nuts.... that would be even nicer ;)
     
  23. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    That's what Dorsal reported, in that thread I linked to in the first post. I am curious, myself what the increase will be. That's why I offered:
    "Y is running comfortably at 17185.781 Steps, 60 Velocity, 20 Accel."

    Dorsal, are you saying that isn't true? :?
     
  24. kyyu

    kyyu Active Member

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    btw rcav8r,
    You are using those weird stepper from Circuit Specialist, aren't you? I believe the three acme people here, are all using or going to use the stock stepper motors. So we have the advantage of direct comparison.

    -Keok
     
  25. rcav8r

    rcav8r Moderator Staff Member

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    kyyu; I was using one of the weird steppers on the Y, but even with nothing attached I was getting a whopping 7ipm. Torque was no problem though as I could almost pull the PhlatPrinter across the bench without missing steps. I now have that stepper on the Z, and the stock stepper on the Y.
     

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